futeko.com FORUM
Product Support => Zidoo Z1000, X20 Pro, X20 => Topic started by: Nice Monkey on August 09, 2018, 10:44:47 AM
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Both on the Zidoo official website and on the Futeko sales info it remains unclear to me if the SABRE DAC output is provided via XLR plus RCA or via XLR connectors only.
The RCA plugs at the back are in a block similar to X20 which connects to the standard SOC and not the SABRE DAC. See also the Zidoo forum where I describe my doubts in more details.
http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?threads/audio-panel-internal-connection-and-related-audio-processing-settings.10447/
Seen the quick answer on the forum one may presume only XLR outputs are available with current FW and XLR-to-RCA cables need to be used to connect to typical home equipment. It is highly recommended to read this when doing so:
http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?threads/best-practice-xlr-to-rca-or-straight-rca-to-rca-xlr-to-xlr-cables.10277/
I would suggest Futeko to add such a cable or at least offer a bundle including it. They are not that common. One needs to buy it on the web or visit a high end audio shop.
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@Nice Monkey.
Just to let you know that your second link produces an error report.
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@Nice Monkey.
Just to let you know that your second link produces an error report.
Thanks Karl for reporting. Indeed I changed the title there! :-[
Solved: works again. :)
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Now that all pre-orders are being shipped I do expect that one of the happy new owners and/or Futeko can shed some light on my big question/doubt to which DAC the RCA outputs are connected?
Not a trivial detail in my modest view: Potentially leading to misunderstandings and disappointments using the RCA outputs. But maybe all my worries are incorrect and unnecessary after all as they are connected to the SABRE DAC as suggested by the Zidoo commercial webpages!
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Pre-orders go out today.
I don't know the answer to your question about the DAC and RCA outputs.
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Pre-orders go out today.
I don't know the answer to your question about the DAC and RCA outputs.
Having a X20 Pro unit it is very easy to validate the RCA internal connection. ;)
Does the box come with a "Quick install manual"? This should be documented there clearly.
In the new X20 Pro "Audio processing" setup tab one can regulate among other SABRE DAC settings "Analog Volume" of the output. This should have no effect on the Analog output of the SOC integrated DAC which can be regulated by the volume control on the remote control. The XLR output level on the other hand should not change using the volume buttons on the remote control.
a) If "Analog Volume" in Pro "Audio processing" settings varies the volume on both the XLR and RCA plugs and the remote control has no effect on them then using RCA is OK as it is definitely connected to the SABRE audio panel. :)
b) If on the other hand volume changes only on XLR and RCA volume changes with the volume buttons on the remote control then RCA is connected to the SOC for sure. RCA should under this condition not be used for analog audio as XLR output quality will be far superior. :(
In the second case the audio quality on RCA outputs is identical to X20 (X8/X9s/X10) . RCA is with such a setup only useful to compare sound quality differences provided by the integrated SOC/DAC versus the SABRE audio panel. ???
Not a trivial test to do in my modest view. Please share the outcome here and also share other listening test results.
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Still nobody who tried this? Nobody using the SABRE analog output at all? If you do how did you connect it? ???
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a) If "Analog Volume" in Pro "Audio processing" settings varies the volume on both the XLR and RCA plugs and the remote control has no effect on them then using RCA is OK as it is definitely connected to the SABRE audio panel. :)
b) If on the other hand volume changes only on XLR and RCA volume changes with the volume buttons on the remote control then RCA is connected to the SOC for sure. RCA should under this condition not be used for analog audio as XLR output quality will be far superior. :(
X20 Pro connected to AVR by RCA. Audio Processing - Switch For Analog Audio (DAC) turned on.
Remote volume keys change volume, but so does the slider at Audio Processing - Analog Audio Volume.
Inconclusive?!
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a) If "Analog Volume" in Pro "Audio processing" settings varies the volume on both the XLR and RCA plugs and the remote control has no effect on them then using RCA is OK as it is definitely connected to the SABRE audio panel. :)
b) If on the other hand volume changes only on XLR and RCA volume changes with the volume buttons on the remote control then RCA is connected to the SOC for sure. RCA should under this condition not be used for analog audio as XLR output quality will be far superior. :(
X20 Pro connected to AVR by RCA. Audio Processing - Switch For Analog Audio (DAC) turned on.
Remote volume keys change volume, but so does the slider at Audio Processing - Analog Audio Volume.
Inconclusive?!
Thanks for testing! :)
Not total conclusive yet, just a surprise result. My educated guess now is that it is connected correctly to the chip. ;D
It could be nice for some if remote volume control also works on Audio Panel volume output. So that could have been implemented? Personally I would never do so as quality of the output signal is jeopardized (e.g. the S/R ratio will vary) when connecting it to any type of AMP. Volume control within the chip is only meant to be used to solve peak level mismatches in the total audio chain, not for normal listening volume control. In combination with a headphone connected to it may be an exception.
1) Easy to validate by using a XLR to RCA cable as this output should then also vary by both the remote control and the Audio Panel volume control.
If it does not the signal paths are different. XLR then is the preferred output always.
2) Also changing the volume using the remote should be visible on the slider within the Audio Panel as it should move synchronously with it. One may need to leave and re-enter setup to see this effect (probably no live update of the screen).
If it does not move synchronously but the previous test was positive(XLR output varies also with the remote control ) then analog audio output signal is routed via the muxer integrated into the SOC (low quality). That would be very bad news as it would be a real design mistake. This is why RAW HDMI Audio bypasses it e.g. and this digital signal should be passed RAW to the chip too).
If both outputs vary synchronously then an additional option to disable this remote control feature is essential (default should best be OFF).
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We will have an XLR > RCA cable later this week for testing.
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We will have an XLR > RCA cable later this week for testing.
Good news .! ;)
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System volume and audio processing volume both change output on RCA and XLR when DAC is enabled. They act in unison.
I have asked Zidoo about this and they say: 'both XLR outputs and RCA outputs connected directly to the DAC'.
It is possible that system volume control is remapped to DAC volume control when DAC is enabled.
If you have any other tests you want doing I am happy to do it.
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System volume and audio processing volume both change output on RCA and XLR when DAC is enabled. They act in unison.
I have asked Zidoo about this and they say: 'both XLR outputs and RCA outputs connected directly to the DAC'.
It is possible that system volume control is remapped to DAC volume control when DAC is enabled.
If you have any other tests you want doing I am happy to do it.
Thanks .! I see you got the cable. :)
This is what I expected after the first results: Both connected to the DAC. A bit confusing how it is implemented/shown at the back but anyway good news. :)
I am just wondering why Zidoo never stated so on the forum directly (or private mail)?
I am still wondering how the volume control using the remote works exactly? ???
Can you do the next test too please:
Changing the volume using the remote should be visible on the slider within the Audio Panel as it should move synchronously with it (remote control volume changes directly send to the SABRE chip too). One may need to leave and re-enter setup to see this effect. There is probably no live update of the setup screen changing volume using the remote. This if implemented like this which I doubt.
If the audio processing volume setup is not changed then it is realized by changing the digital volume level forwarded by the SOC to the audio panel.
That is quality wise (should be passed RAW) a very bad idea but once known (at least partially) avoidable leaving it at maximum. Will ask Zidoo then for an option to enable RAW output as an alternative.
Or they change it to the better implementation sending volume changes to the SABRE DAC. Maybe Zidoo learned a few things by now and are working on these options already?
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Changing volume using remote does not alter volume in Audio Processor - Analog Audio Volume.
I have contacted Zidoo about this. They did say in a previous email that they were developing to improve the volume function.
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Changing volume using remote does not alter volume in Audio Processor - Analog Audio Volume.
I have contacted Zidoo about this. They did say in a previous email that they were developing to improve the volume function.
Thanks again! This just confirmed what I expected. We now at least know how it is implemented.
For those looking for optimal audio results, leave the volume control using the remote at the maximum.
Now up to Zidoo to develop it further.
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Any volunteer to take an inside picture of the Audio Panel?
Items to look at for known impact on audio quality of a DAC in general:
- Power sourcing for the four DC inputs of the SABRE chip.
- The crystal oscillator brand/type
- The OpAMps used for audio amplification RCA and XLR outputs.
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Hello Nice Monkey,
(https://i.ibb.co/MhvH8MF/DSC-5678-02.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/pfdFBtW/DSC-5686-v2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/cxXp9Kt/DSC-5684-jpeg.jpg)
I can do other photos as needed
see you
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@OlivierQC thanks for these pictures. :)
Gives a good overview but not detailed/focused enough to read the text/codes on the individual components.
DC Power capacitor, PSU's section, DAC+Clock circuitry, XLR AMP left/right and RCA AMP sections are neatly marked. It is a nicely build board with looks like a quality design for AMP's and the audio panel secondary power. Power for it is derived from the main switched mode PSU for the SOC + HDD's. Can't judge the individual component quality used for this design (yet).
I think it uses I2S interfacing with the SOC main board and not an internal USB port as I don't see components for that. That explains it is not seen by APP's designed for USB DAC's. Makes sense to me too as this interface is a lot simpler to implement. The information I got earlier from Zidoo using internal USB for interfacing is most likely erroneous. This just means deployment of the SABRE audio chip will depend on the APP's provided by Zidoo.
If you could do one more it would be nice. Please take a full top view with just the audio panel on it. Should be sharp overall and as high res as possible.
Updated my review:
https://www.futeko.com/newforum/index.php?topic=3868.0
This for honest comparison with the DIY-kit with the details further revealed.
The panels potential sound quality should be close HW wise. It all depends on the Audio APP's provided how functional it will become. Seen questions asked by Zidoo work seems to be in progress to make further steps there. This specifically for playing SACD originated audio files.
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Hello Nice Monkey,
Here is a .rar file with new photos (original size)
https://uptobox.com/bgmj831qzswf
see you
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@OlivierQC
As you probably noticed the quest moved on to the new UHD2000 which will be looking quite similar I suspect.
https://www.futeko.com/newforum/index.php?topic=4327.0
Also details for that one and what it has to offer seem mostly known by now.
The big question is how will Music Player 3.0 develop supporting that and all other current Zidoo media players?
Main questions:
- Will DST real-time decompression+re-encoding be solved to perform smooth as silk?
- Will MCH SACD in any format be supported?
- Will the player find external USB connected DAC's too and support those identically to the Internal USB DAC?